The Ice Blog

by Ice

Agree to Disagree

Darren Gilbert at The Patriot Warrior posted in reply to my response to his post “The Problem with Ron Paul’s Thinking”.

Here is my initial reply and the discussion that follows the above mentioned post:

What is wrong with Your thinking?

Ron Paul’s position is not one of narrow mindedness. His position is based on Abiding By The Constitution. As far as government is concerned, the Constitution is its only authority and if that is narrow minded or does not allow any other viewpoints: then so be it!!.

The truth about Cuba is that Castro would more than likely not be in power today if we had lifted the embargo long ago. Free Trade would be the end of most Dictatorships… even if they are disguised as being a “Democratic society”.

You may need to ponder a bit more in regards the war. First of all, the terrorists are trying to kill Americans simply because of U.S. interference in the region. So if we had not been interfering we would not have been a target in the first place. We cannot spread democracy at the point of a gun. We cannot tell other people how to live their life and any attempt to “westernize” the middle east will be met with fury. Again, TRADE is the only answer. You might want to recheck Dr. Paul’s statements about the effects of Trade and how we have achieved much more in peace through trade than with military force.

The “national id card” is already upon you. It is called the Real ID. If you believe that “tagging” every American with some form of identification will somehow eliminate or diminish terrorist activity it would be difficult to provide proof. While the government was on HIGH ALERT for VISA VIOLATIONS the INS renewed the Visa for 2 of the dead 9/11 hijackers and mailed them to the flight school they had trained at. Remember: THEY WERE ON HIGH ALERT !! This Real ID program will be another bureaucratic mess… and will not provide one ounce of security as securing the borders would. See this article and others that may assist with your understanding of this problem.

What “isolationism” are you speaking about? Ron Paul is not calling for “isolationism”. He is calling for “non intervention”. There is a huge difference in “isolationism” and “non-intervention”. The first would most assuredly have a negative effect on the economy. The second would not. Ron Paul wants to stop policing the world, not stop doing business with it. He wants the U.S. to stop acting belligerent and demanding to the rest of the world. “Lead by example” are his words.

Your statements lead me to believe that you are gung ho for American interference with the sovereignty of other nations, that America should force its views on others either militarily or with bribes. It also leads me to believe that you seem to think there are no consequences the U.S. will face for its actions. Ron Paul has said that we are now facing the consequences for our actions. He was not in any way an “apologist”. He has stated exactly what the CIA has: we were attacked due to our foreign policy of intervention in the middle east. It’s called “blow back”.

If you believe that the U.S. will not suffer any consequences for its meddling in the affairs of other nations you should experiment with that philosophy in your own life and take note of the results. Why not insert yourself into the affairs of your neighbors, affairs which are none of your business, and see what consequences you might suffer. If there are no consequences then your philosophy would hold up even on the world stage. Truth: if you start butting into the business of others you will end up getting a bloody nose.

Ron Paul is the only candidate that is telling the American People the true reality of the troubles we face and how we can effectively deal with them. No other candidate has offered anything more than more years of war and window dressing for the economic troubles we face.

A bit more research might revise your thinking.

Ice

Darren’s response is as follows:

Thank you for you comments.

Correct me if I am wrong … but I believe the invasion of Afghanistan and Iraq came after 9/11 … which was, in fact, the second attempt on the World Trade Center … note the word “World.”

I am sorry, but nowhere in the Constitution does it say that we have to sit by and let religious fanatics from the dark ages attempt to blow us off the face of the earth.

The fact is that we live in a world with a global economy. There are U.S. business interests in many other nations. I was in London a few year ago and walked down a street lined with banks; including he National Bank of Iran and Saudi Arabia. We import product from Japan, Europe, China, and, yes, oil from the Middle East. We also export to those countries. I can order Tai food in Knoxville and you can order a Big Mac in Munich. Pardon me, but I don’t see that as interference.

It was not the U.S. that colonized the Middle East, stripped them of their resources, set up artificial nation-states disregarding all ethnic ties, then pulled out … that was Europe … Germany, France, and Great Britain for the most part.

Yes, we did go into to Afghanistan, to help the Afghanis fight off the Soviet troops that invaded their country … an other example of American imperialism … I suppose in your mind. The “blowback” from that should be “Thanks Guys” … not 9/11. Osama bin Laden is a wealthy man, and not one of the downtrodden victims of U.S. oppression. His second in command is a medical doctor. No … they are simply evil men!

The fact is that the extremist radical branch of Islam is a barbaric Dark Age religion that would impose itself on the rest of the world, by the sword if necessary! It’s a religion of peace … trust me or I’ll kill you!!

I am happy to peacefully coexist with anybody … and I have no need to intervene in another nations affairs … unless that nation is blowing up our buildings and killing our people, or other people I care about.

Having U.S. forces stationed at strategic points around the globe gives us the ability to protect our national interests, and the interests of other countries (even France as much as they hate to admit it).

What my neighbor does is his own business, but … if I see my neighbor trying to chop up his wife and kids with a hatchet … bloody nose or not, I will do my best to stop him, because if he gets away with it … next time it might be your kids or my kids he goes after.

Get your head out of the sand. While we are not perfect, the U.S. is generally a force for good on this planet. Osama bin Laden does not want to trade with us … and we need to know who is crossing our borders. By stating that the “VISA” system is flawed, you are, in fact, making an argument that we need to change, or revise, or improve the system we have. Not end it altogether.

My thinking may or may not change over time … but not in a way that will agree with your line of thought. It is because I have learned more over the years that I do not agree with you!

John Lennon is dead because someone shot him … and all he was saying was “give peace a chance.”

And my latest response (Not yet approved at this time):

Yes, we invaded after we were attacked. Ron Paul suggested a Letter of Marque and Reprisal. If such a letter had been voted by Congress the world may have seen the last of Osama long ago. And do not attempt to convince that these “religious fanatics” attack us for any other reason then U.S. meddling in the Middle East. U.S. foreign policy is the cause of so much animosity (and downright hatred) of the U.S. across the globe that many would see harm come to us.

However, I’ve leaned more towards military action against Afghanistan but to the extent of absolute destruction and then walking away. And let that be a message to any nation that would act against us or harbor those that would act against us. The war in Iraq is a totally different story.

The very first point we must realize is that only Congress has the right to declare war. And Declare war is what we must do if we are to engage a nation like Iraq. So far we have no evidence that Iraq was involved in 9/11 and Iraq was certainly not an “imminent” threat to the U.S. at the time the U.S. attacked it.

The commercial aspect of relations with other nations is a plus. That falls under “trade”. What makes you believe that we cannot have that if we don’t have a military presence in those nations or some form of military alliance? And wouldn’t you agree that American businesses in other nations are subject to the laws of those nations?

And yes we live in a “global economy” with a fiat currency and a national economy in the hands of private bankers (an elite few). Mark these words: a fiat currency cannot stand and the U.S. will become prey to other nations because it is the weakest of all economies. This we need to change quickly (and I don’t mean with an “Amero” and the NAU”).

It is absurd to even suggest that we have any right to interfere in other nations as we do. Even in Afghanistan, as you mention. The Soviet Union had its resources spread too thin (as we do now) and it collapsed.

If you saw your neighbor chopping up his wife, would you shoot him or call the police? But let me ask a more pertinent question: Do you believe the U.S. has the right to meddle in the politics of other nations? To “install” friendly governments in other nations? This is the sort of meddling that has caused so much hatred for the U.S. around the globe. The U.S. military presence around the globe is a reminder of that meddling.

If the U.S. had no economic problems at home, if the U.S. had been minding its own business, the U.S. would be stronger today than it is. There would be more nations attempting to emulate the U.S. and do business with the U.S. then there are at this point in time. American businesses would not require a military presence in the nations they do business with and American Tourists would be much safer if the U.S. had not been as belligerent as it has been in the last few decades.

We don’t want to trade with Osama either. We want him Dead. But the U.S. military isn’t getting the job done while it rebuilds Afghanistan and Iraq.

Who said anything about ending the VISA system? But answer me this: How is tagging all Americans with some form of National ID going to protect our borders? And if border security is of such great importance then why is there no action to secure it?

Yes, there are evil men all over the world. At one time Osama was a friend to the U.S. So was Saddam. And who is the U.S. now supporting with arms that will one day become enemies? I still say a Letter of Marque and Reprisal would see the end of Osama much more quickly and that we should now turn our back on Afghanistan instead of rebuilding it. They brought the destruction upon themselves. Let Afghanistani’s rebuild their nation. Let the Iraqi’s rebuild theirs.

Yes, John Lennon was shot and killed. But your position on gun control wouldn’t have stopped that from happening. You see, we cannot have roses and candy all the time. There will always be trouble in the world. The U.S. is not the policemen of the world. And the U.S. is bound by the Constitution. The U.S. has its limits which it has been over stepping for far too long, particularly here at home.

It is because I know right from wrong that I disagree with you.

“Do unto others as you would have them do unto you” ring any bells?

My readers comments are welcome.

Advertisements

January 23, 2008 - Posted by | Economy, End of America, Freedom & Liberty, Law, Politics, Ron Paul

5 Comments »

  1. […] eugenius wrote an interesting post today onHere’s a quick excerptDarren Gilbert at The Patriot Warrior posted in reply to my response to of his post “The Problem with Ron Paul’s Thinking”. Here is my initial reply and the discussion that follows the above mentioned post: What is wrong with Your thinking? Ron Paul’s position is not one of narrow mindedness. His position is based on Abiding By The Constitution. As far as government is concerned, the Constitution is its only authority and if that is narrow minded or does not allow any other viewpoints: then so be it!!. The truth about Cuba is that Castro would more than likely not be in power today if we had lifted the embargo long ago. Free Trade would be the end of most Dictatorships… even if they are disguised as being a “Democratic society”. You may need to ponder a bit more in regards the war. First of all, the terrorists are trying to kill Americans simply […] […]

    Pingback by Ron Paul » Blog Archive » Agree to Disagree | January 23, 2008 | Reply

  2. […] members here have much knowledge and some are much more eloquent than I. The discussion is posted here. Your comments would be most appreciated. __________________ Subscribe and Contribute to The Ice […]

    Pingback by Agree to Disagree - suijurisclub.net | January 23, 2008 | Reply

  3. […] U.S. Department of State Video and Audio wrote an interesting post today onHere’s a quick excerptWe cannot tell other people how to live their life and any attempt to “westernize” the middle east will be met with fury. Again, TRADE is the only answer. You might want to recheck Dr. Paul’s statements about the effects of Trade and … […]

    Pingback by Agree to Disagree · Middle East | January 23, 2008 | Reply

  4. 🙂 Thanks for this read…Enjoyed the views. I do think the people of USA forget one very important fact. When the list of hijackers and attackers of 9/11 was listed, where were they from? As far as my memory goes, they were from Saudi Arabia. So whats the logic behind invading Afghanistan and Iraq? Now that all the reasons for invading Iraq seems to be flawed, who are we going to hold responsible for the fiasco? Could USA expect fair treatment from the Iraqis when the basis for the invasion was Untrue?

    Comment by mysoul | May 16, 2008 | Reply

  5. Yes, the hijackers came from Saudi Arabia. And, in his great wisdom, the President wasted no time making a deal to allow 25,000 more Saudi Visa’s.

    It truly strikes me as bizarre that the President argued for legislation that made his spying program legal with the reasoning that this would protect the U.S. from terrorist attacks when the truth is that the spy program was already in effect (illegally) long before 9/11 and did nothing to stop that evil plan from being carried out. The bizarre is that The People never questioned this. Instead they yawned and changed channels to catch the latest episode of “Survivor”.

    Meanwhile the borders of the union are like open doors and the implementation of the RealID to track the every movement of Americans is under way. Now why would any American believe that tracking Americans will stop terrorists?? Why are millions of Americans sitting back while Freedom is being crushed under the weight of legislation that does the exact opposite of “to preserve, protect and defend” the Constitution??

    The Oath that Senators, Congressmen and the Executive have taken has been violated and it seems there are very few of us that demonstrate any concern.

    It is time to boot these men and women from public service and cause real change. Let us begin now to hold the government to its limits by forcing our “servants” to abide by their oath or suffer the consequences for their treasonous acts.

    I have 3 words for all Americans with the courage to fight for the preservation of Freedom:

    Run For Office!!

    Comment by Ice | May 16, 2008 | Reply


Leave a Reply

Fill in your details below or click an icon to log in:

WordPress.com Logo

You are commenting using your WordPress.com account. Log Out / Change )

Twitter picture

You are commenting using your Twitter account. Log Out / Change )

Facebook photo

You are commenting using your Facebook account. Log Out / Change )

Google+ photo

You are commenting using your Google+ account. Log Out / Change )

Connecting to %s

%d bloggers like this: